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Space Marines [Discussion]

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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Commander Cross » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:27 am

Matapiojo wrote:
Commander Cross wrote:Its official, we gotta plan out Warhammer 40K vs Magic the Gathering, in that case.


I think that has too many unquantifiables, and the things that can be quantified would steamroll over Magic. Necrons alone would be very difficult to deal with since they would have a ton of return to hand, remove from game, discard, return to play, haste, counterspell, regenerate, shadow, phase, bury, fear, flash, and protection effects along with gargantuan direct damage and absurd enchantments and artifacts. If I was to give them a color, they would be black and blue multis with insane artifacts.

No. 40K and Magic are very incompatible. The wort issue with them is that they both have far too much material to cover, and not so many followers willing to do the work.



You do realize that DarkBladex has studied Magic the Gathering and if such a match came to be, both he and CIDE would be more than prepared to cover the material that they DO have, right?
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Matapiojo » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:51 am

Yes. I too can debate it well enough as I have played and read Magic since 1995. That is almost two decades, and thousands of cards and supplemental material, I've been exposed to. In fact, I would gamble to say I know more about Magic than 40K.

But that's not my point. My point is that Magic's strength comes from elements we cannot quantify. 40K is no slouch in unquantifiables as it has the No-Limit Fallacy that is the Immaterium, either. This issue is such because both are games established and developped with the idea that EVERYBODY can be, and is, a significant part of their universe. In order for them to do this, they have to leave distinct gaps in lore and mechanics for every player and their mothers to do whatever they want in their respective universes. Every deck created in MtG represents the mind of a Planeswalker tapping directly into the multiverse. Every miniature army placed on the table represents unknown elements (such as the two striken marine legions) in a miriad of powerful factions.

And thus the dilema. If you attempt to remove these unquantifiables, you leave one side being completely outclassed. On one side you have powerful spellweavers that can bend reality to their will. On another you have a powerful entity that resides outside time and space as well as has all the answers to all questions across the cosmos, and sees all possible futures and outcomes. Take those away and you have planet-dwellers facing various inter-planetary forces that have unfathomable numbers which may very well reach into the infinite scale of things.

What is a MtG planet to do in the face of a Necron Tomb Ship focused solar discharge without the protection of powerful planeswalkers? What force is expected to stand against an exterminatus if we are not includding omnipotents or other powerful deities? What elemets are expected to run after dimension-hopping planeswalkers, if not including the fallacious RUMORS of Necron tech or NLF Tzentchian manipulations?

Incompatible, or otherwise pointless. That's what MtG vs 40K would be.
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Commander Cross » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:03 am

Matapiojo wrote:Yes. I too can debate it well enough as I have played and read Magic since 1995. That is almost two decades, and thousands of cards and supplemental material, I've been exposed to. In fact, I would gamble to say I know more about Magic than 40K.

But that's not my point. My point is that Magic's strength comes from elements we cannot quantify. 40K is no slouch in unquantifiables as it has the No-Limit Fallacy that is the Immaterium, either. This issue is such because both are games established and developped with the idea that EVERYBODY can be, and is, a significant part of their universe. In order for them to do this, they have to leave distinct gaps in lore and mechanics for every player and their mothers to do whatever they want in their respective universes. Every deck created in MtG represents the mind of a Planeswalker tapping directly into the multiverse. Every miniature army placed on the table represents unknown elements (such as the two striken marine legions) in a miriad of powerful factions.

And thus the dilema. If you attempt to remove these unquantifiables, you leave one side being completely outclassed. On one side you have powerful spellweavers that can bend reality to their will. On another you have a powerful entity that resides outside time and space as well as has all the answers to all questions across the cosmos, and sees all possible futures and outcomes. Take those away and you have planet-dwellers facing various inter-planetary forces that have unfathomable numbers which may very well reach into the infinite scale of things.

What is a MtG planet to do in the face of a Necron Tomb Ship focused solar discharge without the protection of powerful planeswalkers? What force is expected to stand against an exterminatus if we are not includding omnipotents or other powerful deities? What elemets are expected to run after dimension-hopping planeswalkers, if not including the fallacious RUMORS of Necron tech or NLF Tzentchian manipulations?

Incompatible, or otherwise pointless. That's what MtG vs 40K would be.


Blast it, and i thought that with the right incarnation for 40K in mind(is Composite!-era permittable to use, if the scenario requests it?) it would actually be an evened-out fight.

In any case, you have any Planeswalker from MtG to go up against one of Tzeentch's followers, in mind?
All i got is Urza, but he's pretty much it.
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Matapiojo » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:27 am

The new breed of planeswalkers seem suitable to go against 40K psykers. At a glance, though. I would have to research deeper to see if the fights are indeed compatible.

Koth vs Njal?
Jace vs Ahriman?

Perhaps, phoenix lords.

Chandra vs Fuegan?

Dunno, just spitballing. Like I said, we would have to look at them closer to see if such fights are not stomps, but the new planeswalkers are indeed quantifiable. The old ones were more like gods in their infinite powers, and those are hard to debate well in every way, shape, or form.
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Commander Cross » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:52 am

Matapiojo wrote:The new breed of planeswalkers seem suitable to go against 40K psykers. At a glance, though. I would have to research deeper to see if the fights are indeed compatible.

Koth vs Njal?
Jace vs Ahriman?

Perhaps, phoenix lords.

Chandra vs Fuegan?

Dunno, just spitballing. Like I said, we would have to look at them closer to see if such fights are not stomps, but the new planeswalkers are indeed quantifiable. The old ones were more like gods in their infinite powers, and those are hard to debate well in every way, shape, or form.


Is Urza still workable if we can find a potential opponent from Warhammer to have him face-off against, in particular?

And its been years since Ahriman's been in a factpile fight, hasn't it?
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Matapiojo » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:09 am

Urza can be used, sure. Perhaps a worthy oponent would be Ulthran.

Ahriman has been on hiatus for some time now. There are rumors starting to sprout that we will get a Codex: Chaos (or Traitor) Legions. I expect such a book to have great insight into more recent Ahriman feats. It could be good to see him make a comeback if such a codex was published since he is so shrouded in blasted mystery.
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Commander Cross » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:55 pm

Matapiojo wrote:Urza can be used, sure. Perhaps a worthy oponent would be Ulthran.

Ahriman has been on hiatus for some time now. There are rumors starting to sprout that we will get a Codex: Chaos (or Traitor) Legions. I expect such a book to have great insight into more recent Ahriman feats. It could be good to see him make a comeback if such a codex was published since he is so shrouded in blasted mystery.


I hope Ulthran's powerful enough to give Urza a real fight, and with equal if not more urgency, we must think of the type of face-off we're talking about.
Is it a fight-based scenario, a tactics-based match-up, an army vs army showdown?

So how long has it been since his match against Darth Malak was first posted, exactly?
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Stealthranger » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:32 am

Quotes from L-W on MC vs Space Marine (each quote from "Dawn of War: Ascension"):

Librarian lifting 500kg (1100lbs, basically half a ton) with his index finger with little effort:

“With a slight nod of satisfaction, [b]he found some leverage with his index finger and drove it underneath the stone. With a faint grimace of effort, the librarian prised the slab of rock off the ground; it pivoted along the far edge, as though hinged, and cascades of sand fell away, revealing the full extent of the object. The tablet was nearly two metres long, perhaps a metre wide, and at least ten centimetres thick.
As she approached, Meritia shook her head in amusement: Jonas hadn’t even noticed that he had just lifted more with the index finger of one hand than most men could have done with the strength of their entire bodies.”


Lifting said slab with one hand:

“The librarian closed his fingers around the edge of the heavy stone slab and lifted it clear of the exposed interior of the casket, placing it carefully onto the ground with one hand.”

Librarian pushing a (13.7-45.7 ton) boulder several meters:

“Gabriel leant into the boulder that blocked the tunnel and pushed it out into the sunlight beyond. It rolled freely for a few metres, dropping away down the slight incline that led into the arena of the grand Blood Ravens amphitheatre. The remaining members of the party squinted into the sudden flood of light as they walked out of the subterranean network at last.”

Librarian jumping up a rock face three times his height with no effort (given the standard Space Marine is 8 ft tall, he would have been jumping 24 feet) and expressing he could have easily jumped higher if he wanted to (this could be a hyperbole):

“With a cry that rose from my stomach, I leapt into the air, reaching out with one hand above my head. I felt my fingers clasp the top lip of the stone, and I pulled, yanking my body up the rock face and flipping my legs over my head in a smooth arc. The ruddy, red light burst all around me as I cleared the rock-line and landed on top of the sandstone pavement. Instantly, my eyes scanned the sky and identified the distant, descending form of the gunship. Keeping my gaze fixed on the vessel,
I started to run again, jumping and springing automatically over the wide cracks and crevices in the sloping ground.
I made that jump like it was nothing. The thought tumbled about my head as I ran, distracting me and jabbing me with its significance. That rock was more than thrice my height. My skin still tingled with an unrealised power. I could have gone higher.


Space Marine walking casually at 45 km/h (28 mph)

“Pausing, I looked back over my shoulder at the diminishing image of the cliff-face behind me, with the storm wall rolling towards it. By my own calculations, I had walked about fifteen kilometres in twenty minutes, through a frozen desert in arctic temperatures, and yet I was not even breathing hard.”

A Space Marine surviving atmospheric re-entry and sliding 200 meters away and remaining uninjured:

“A narrow channel had been blown through the sand; it started in a crater about two hundred metres away and ended at my feet. From the look of it, it had been made by the impact and slide of a fast-moving, solid body. Perhaps it was the impact scar of a meteor. Or perhaps the signature of my own arrival on this planet?

A Space Marine capable of crushing and digging through sandstone with his bare hands (and not with his armor)

“I need to get above this maze; not even the Emperor’s eyes can see through stone. But the sides of the rocks were sheer and smooth, blasted into a featureless sheen by the relentless erosion of the desert wind. I ran my hands impatiently over the stone, feeling the slight unevenness of the sandblasted surface. My fingers clawed experimentally at the sandstone, testing its density to see whether I could rip out handholds or stab them through with my combat knife. The surface crumbled under the strength of my fingers, and I realised in frustration that even if I could cut a hold it would not support my weight.”
Last edited by Stealthranger on Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Matapiojo » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:10 am

@Stealth

I was around for those factoids. Problem is that they don't exactly count as usable feats. We will keep them in mind for a possible word-of-mouth section within the RT, though.
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Re: Space Marines [Discussion]

Postby Commander Cross » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:28 am

Isn't engaging a 40K Space Marine meant to cause migraines to those who are forced to face the possibility, at least in terms of how much Prep!-Time they'd need to get rid of them, properly?
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