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Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed May 31, 2017 8:28 pm

Lowk wrote:
But Dante doesn't disappear from his POV, he's just moving, that description is for either the player or enemy. That raises a possibility that Vergil doesn't teleport, but just appears to due to going so fast. Even in DMC3 I believe he blurred slightly in the direction he was going to teleport to- which signals movement in the regular sense.


Except Vergil's move does not state that. Dante's does.


Dante's says he disappears, which is not a reference to himself. So it follows that Vergil's bit about teleportation might not be fully applicable to himself as well.

Lowk wrote:1. His first a appearance set him up as someone who can teleport.
2. The description of his ability says teleport.
3. That description did not include phrases such as "similar to" or "appears to" in reference to his teleporting. Moving fast is not apart of the move description. Which
4. His style/powers gives a reason why he'd be able to do what Dante doesn't.


1. Yes, and between DMC1 and DMC3, DMC3 shows lesser variants of his powers present in DMC1, which was pretty thoroughly shown off
2. It does, a fictional power that doesn't have any specific way it has to work for the term to fit
3. Teleporting is a vague term that can be used many different ways, it being called teleportation doesn't automatically mean it gets any specific traits. Some characters like Kain just disappear and reappear from one space to another, other's move between dimensions like Nightcrawler, others use that string-theory to bring two places together to shorten the distance, others conjure up portals like Strange- there's no "teleporting means X" definition that cannot be done differently.
4. Bear in mind, Dante gets that same style in DMC4, and he hasn't played with the darkness or been able to teleport.

But something relevant I suppose
Allows player to avoid enemy attacks using special evasive movements."
-Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition, Customize — Style

There's more than one reference, and it does mention movements. True, teleporting even in the sense of ignoring space still plausibly counts as movement, but you said moving wasn't a part of the move's definition, which is true, but it's also true that it IS part of the style's definition in the same game.


Lowk wrote:What Dante doing different than what Vergil does is support not by just those reasons but the theme of Dante and Vergil being similar but different as a whole. If all we had was just the visuals of DMC4 I'd be able to side with the possiblility.But everything else is stacked against it being the case.


"Everything" isn't stacked against it being the case. We can see Vergil move in DMC4 and sort of see him move in DMC3, it's only DMC1, where his powers are extremely different, that he truly shows teleportation that doesn't hint at movement at all. If you'd like to go like 70-30 or something I would get it- but this is a far cry from "everything stacked". Even cutscenes don't show Vergil teleporting- just moving so quickly that he almost does appear at another location from another. That plus gameplay grants the idea of him just moving extremely fast no small bit of credit when all that contradicts is a previous game (where he's a very different character) and text from the same games where we can see him moving.
More than a little evidence suggests he may not be teleporting in the ignoring space method.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Lowk » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:04 am

Dante's says he disappears, which is not a reference to himself. So it follows that Vergil's bit about teleportation might not be fully applicable to himself as well.


Note the part I underlined. Twin can be similar. That does not mean they do everything the same. Some have skills or talents the other does not. Just because Dante does it this way doesn't mean Vergil does as well. Especially when you have differing descriptions. One of which does not have the words that would indicate your possibility unless you put them into it or try to twist the existing words to fit it.

1. Yes, and between DMC1 and DMC3, DMC3 shows lesser variants of his powers present in DMC1, which was pretty thoroughly shown off


How is it inferior? DMC 3-4 Vergil spams quick teleports. DMC1 version takes longer to complete before he's able to attack. Nelo Angelo as a whole seems like a dumbed down version of Vergil. Which would make since considering he's not in his right mind... I wish they would bring Vergil back. Or maybe have Nero grow to be more like his father. His style is aesthetically pleasing to my inner weeb.

2. It does, a fictional power that doesn't have any specific way it has to work for the term to fit
3. Teleporting is a vague term that can be used many different ways, it being called teleportation doesn't automatically mean it gets any specific traits. Some characters like Kain just disappear and reappear from one space to another, other's move between dimensions like Nightcrawler, others use that string-theory to bring two places together to shorten the distance, others conjure up portals like Strange- there's no "teleporting means X" definition that cannot be done differently.


It says he teleport instantaneously. That's it. Not move so fast he looks like he's teleported. Not move so quick it appears as if he is teleporting. Just teleporting. Teleportation is
2: in fiction : instantaeous travel between two locations without crossing the intervening space
https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... eportation
It even has the word in the definition. It doesn't matter how he does it but he's not doing it the same way that Dante does his trick which is via speed.

4. Bear in mind, Dante gets that same style in DMC4, and he hasn't played with the darkness or been able to teleport.


He just copying his brother's flair or "style" of wielding yamato. He doesn't have all the same skills as Vergil just because he has his weapon. He also can't make summoned swords. Nor does he have all his brother's combos. This kind of adds to the similar but different point.

But something relevant I suppose
Allows player to avoid enemy attacks using special evasive movements."
-Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition, Customize — Style
There's more than one reference, and it does mention movements. True, teleporting even in the sense of ignoring space still plausibly counts as movement, but you said moving wasn't a part of the move's definition, which is true, but it's also true that it IS part of the style's definition in the same game.


Movement can mean change of place or position. Teleportation is like the ultimate evasive movement.

"Everything" isn't stacked against it being the case. We can see Vergil move in DMC4 and sort of see him move in DMC3, it's only DMC1, where his powers are extremely different, that he truly shows teleportation that doesn't hint at movement at all. If you'd like to go like 70-30 or something I would get it- but this is a far cry from "everything stacked". Even cutscenes don't show Vergil teleporting- just moving so quickly that he almost does appear at another location from another. That plus gameplay grants the idea of him just moving extremely fast no small bit of credit when all that contradicts is a previous game (where he's a very different character) and text from the same games where we can see him moving.
More than a little evidence suggests he may not be teleporting in the ignoring space method.


Focused a little hard on the literal version "everything". Though I guess that's fair. I still have to catch myself from exaggerating and using literally where it's not needed so maybe I word things too literally. I literally can't tell sometimes.
What's a good single-word below the scale of everything? Most? Lots? More?
Smokey Bear: Omnipotence concerning Wildfires
McGruff: Omnipotence concerning crime
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:32 am

Lowk wrote:
Dante's says he disappears, which is not a reference to himself. So it follows that Vergil's bit about teleportation might not be fully applicable to himself as well.


Note the part I underlined. Twin can be similar. That does not mean they do everything the same. Some have skills or talents the other does not. Just because Dante does it this way doesn't mean Vergil does as well. Especially when you have differing descriptions. One of which does not have the words that would indicate your possibility unless you put them into it or try to twist the existing words to fit it.


The fact that they're twins was not part of that point. The point was Dante's description (an example of text from the game) points to the description relating to an outside source and that Vergil's description (example text from the same game) is... example text from the same game.
That's assuming the descriptive text is entirely accurate to begin with since as I recall another states Dante fires a hundred bullets in a few seconds and can stab a million times- both of which come across as pretty unlikely considering the limitations he shows in cutscenes.

Lowk wrote:
1. Yes, and between DMC1 and DMC3, DMC3 shows lesser variants of his powers present in DMC1, which was pretty thoroughly shown off


How is it inferior? DMC 3-4 Vergil spams quick teleports. DMC1 version takes longer to complete before he's able to attack. Nelo Angelo as a whole seems like a dumbed down version of Vergil. Which would make since considering he's not in his right mind... I wish they would bring Vergil back. Or maybe have Nero grow to be more like his father. His style is aesthetically pleasing to my inner weeb.


His summoned swords? Those are hella weaker in DMC3 than they look in DMC1 and he can't control them as well.
Lots of people wish a lot of things for DMC, instead, we got a reboot that nobody really wanted with Dante being half-angel and half-demon (nothing like the oldies I guess)- yay us.

Lowk wrote:
2. It does, a fictional power that doesn't have any specific way it has to work for the term to fit
3. Teleporting is a vague term that can be used many different ways, it being called teleportation doesn't automatically mean it gets any specific traits. Some characters like Kain just disappear and reappear from one space to another, other's move between dimensions like Nightcrawler, others use that string-theory to bring two places together to shorten the distance, others conjure up portals like Strange- there's no "teleporting means X" definition that cannot be done differently.


It says he teleport instantaneously. That's it. Not move so fast he looks like he's teleported. Not move so quick it appears as if he is teleporting. Just teleporting. Teleportation is
2: in fiction : instantaeous travel between two locations without crossing the intervening space
https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... eportation
It even has the word in the definition. It doesn't matter how he does it but he's not doing it the same way that Dante does his trick which is via speed.


He doesn't do either of those things though, DMC4 makes this very clear, he traverses the distance and doesn't do so instantly; furthermore, it is the later version of the power. If we see a power in two different occasions- and the later one changes how the power works- which is correct?
Teleportation in SOME fictions is instant travel between two locations without crossing the intervening space. Some fictions have it not be instant, some fictions have you cross the intervening space in some fashions, it's used about as many different ways as "laser" is- which is why the word alone isn't ironclad in what it means.


Lowk wrote:
But something relevant I suppose
Allows player to avoid enemy attacks using special evasive movements."
-Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition, Customize — Style
There's more than one reference, and it does mention movements. True, teleporting even in the sense of ignoring space still plausibly counts as movement, but you said moving wasn't a part of the move's definition, which is true, but it's also true that it IS part of the style's definition in the same game.


Movement can mean change of place or position. Teleportation is like the ultimate evasive movement.


Or it can mean physically moving through space- it can mean both.

Lowk wrote:
"Everything" isn't stacked against it being the case. We can see Vergil move in DMC4 and sort of see him move in DMC3, it's only DMC1, where his powers are extremely different, that he truly shows teleportation that doesn't hint at movement at all. If you'd like to go like 70-30 or something I would get it- but this is a far cry from "everything stacked". Even cutscenes don't show Vergil teleporting- just moving so quickly that he almost does appear at another location from another. That plus gameplay grants the idea of him just moving extremely fast no small bit of credit when all that contradicts is a previous game (where he's a very different character) and text from the same games where we can see him moving.
More than a little evidence suggests he may not be teleporting in the ignoring space method.


Focused a little hard on the literal version "everything". Though I guess that's fair. I still have to catch myself from exaggerating and using literally where it's not needed so maybe I word things too literally. I literally can't tell sometimes.
What's a good single-word below the scale of everything? Most? Lots? More?


I generally use "Quite a bit" or "most" myself, although I'm also guilty of using "everything" on occasion.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Polloloko » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:13 pm

Bump, Vergil in DMC5 was equal to Dante, even in the ending Vergil said they were "even", Nero isnt behind too, he bitch slap Dante into the ground ( Dante was injure & tire ) & defeated Vergil ( Vergil was tire fighting Dante ), then there Nero Devil Trigger + Dante/Vergil's New Devil Triggers.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby ka-tet19 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:13 pm

Pretty big DC/Ap upgrade via scaling and statements from DMCV
whatever becomes has already happened before the after thought began at all
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