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Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Lowk » Tue May 30, 2017 3:23 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:
Lowk wrote:
Well like I said earlier, its not impossible that that is a visual aid for the person controlling the character. Wasnt there a cutscene where Vergil used teleport? (to anyone in particular)


He does it in his boss fight with Dante. His air trick is called a teleport. And there's blink and you'll miss moments in his DMC4 scene.
https://youtu.be/rBxkqoZiPLA
1:20
1:22

Edit:Again, only using it to cross a few meters. Don't think That Vergil has long range teleport feats. DmC Vergil might, but not main series.


Just pointing out if you slow that down, he's moving really fast, not teleporting; he travels the distance- he doesn't just appear.
Which means I kinda have to ask- does the main series ever actually say he teleports? Or is that just sort of a fan explanation for why he blurs around sometimes FTE style and other times just shows up without the blur?


Couldn't slow it down on my phone. In dmc 3 he does this move where he teleports while your attacking to evade. Or to attack by disappearing and striking from above or unleash these slash bubbles.
https://youtu.be/QLxtdj6Z7FM?t=2m2s

And the move he's using in the boss fight is Air trick. Which is where people get that he can teleport from. In the same game it is described
Dante: Disappear in the blink of an eye, then reappear above the enemy ready to strike.
Hold R1, then press O while holding the left analog stick in the direction of the enemy

Vergil: Instantaneously teleport to a spot directly near the enemy.
Press O while on the ground or mid-air
Last edited by Lowk on Tue May 30, 2017 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Kitten Lord » Tue May 30, 2017 6:00 pm

So the game itself in the description uses the word instantaneous, I did not think i was the only one. Also "directly near the enemy" , sounds interesting.

Welcome back, Kitten Lord.

Begging the question is not the same thing as raising the question, which you just did. It's a common error, which I go out of my way to point out.


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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Tue May 30, 2017 9:52 pm

Lowk wrote:
And the move he's using in the boss fight is Air trick. Which is where people get that he can teleport from. In the same game it is described
Dante: Disappear in the blink of an eye, then reappear above the enemy ready to strike.
Hold R1, then press O while holding the left analog stick in the direction of the enemy

Vergil: Instantaneously teleport to a spot directly near the enemy.
Press O while on the ground or mid-air


Well if we look at Dante's text, it's apparently from an outside perspective considering Dante wouldn't disappear and reappear from his POV. Which would imply the teleportation for Vergil's is for the audience/enemies' POV as well. Considering from our POV in DMC4 he doesn't look instantly moving and also doesn't even necessarily look like he's teleporting- it sounds like it might not be teleporting as we know it.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Lowk » Wed May 31, 2017 12:12 am

Friendlysociopath wrote:Considering the text context, plus the context of the games, it sounds like mechanically they mean Vergil teleports instead of literally. He and Dante have the same powerset so it would make sense they can both move fast in that fashion, Vergil just is more proficient in its use, (pre DMC3, Vergil was above Dante) Vergil always seemed like the faster of the two in any case.


Dante and Vergil are physically similar but Vergil carries a devil arm that messes with space and more heavily focuses on magic. Plus he's got the power of darkness, oOOoooOo.
Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition, Style File — Dark Slayer: "A warrior fallen from grace. The power of darkness gives birth to new weapons and skills."

Note the mention of new skills.

And turns out, he's been known to teleport since DMC1 as Nelo Angelo
http://imgur.com/amSdLIc
http://imgur.com/sr9j8gb

EDIT Furthest distance I've found for the teleport
http://imgur.com/ZLZL43m
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed May 31, 2017 1:04 pm

Lowk wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:Considering the text context, plus the context of the games, it sounds like mechanically they mean Vergil teleports instead of literally. He and Dante have the same powerset so it would make sense they can both move fast in that fashion, Vergil just is more proficient in its use, (pre DMC3, Vergil was above Dante) Vergil always seemed like the faster of the two in any case.


Dante and Vergil are physically similar but Vergil carries a devil arm that messes with space and more heavily focuses on magic. Plus he's got the power of darkness, oOOoooOo.
Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition, Style File — Dark Slayer: "A warrior fallen from grace. The power of darkness gives birth to new weapons and skills."

Note the mention of new skills.

And turns out, he's been known to teleport since DMC1 as Nelo Angelo
http://imgur.com/amSdLIc
http://imgur.com/sr9j8gb

EDIT Furthest distance I've found for the teleport
http://imgur.com/ZLZL43m


Now that seems more like traditional teleporting. However I'm still not entirely convinced DMC3/4 Vergil truly teleports in the same fashion. That one in particular teleports in a burst of purple fire- Vergil's color-code was blue prior to that. By "same powerset" I was pointing out their abilities are somewhat identical-
Both have regen, increased speed, strength, the ability to transform, control over their weapons that extends beyond reach, the ability to master weapons by picking them up, and even Vergil's summoned swords technically are extremely similar to Dante's pistols; are they not? Both are the Sons of Sparda channeling their demonic energy to attack opponents- Dante uses guns and bullets while Vergil dislikes guns and instead chooses to make swords. Dante's guns aren't loaded with anything so when he passes it to Vergil in DMC3 either Dante just leaves energy in the guns (not impossible) or Vergil can use it just fine on his own to channel his energy (also not impossible). I'll try it your way- this time.

With the exception of weaponry and this possible variant of teleportation- the two should and apparently do have the same abilities to different degrees.


I wish Winged was around (Or Polloloko would just comment since we can still see you lurking) to explain some of Saber's stuff like the Instinct ability because that was always one of the things I didn't know much about. She basically knows what course of action will serve her best- regardless of mental, visual, or audio clues.
Such as knowing Assassin has a certain-kill move before he uses it, knowing Berserker is nearby without seeing or hearing him, or being able to deflect strikes that specifically confuse the senses of those attacked by them.
The ability is actually described as making surprise attacks ineffective, because she'll know they're coming, the ability is compared to precognition by always allowing her to choose the best course in battle so long as there's a chance.

Against Gilgamesh, that chance was less than 0, so she wasn't getting anything out of that; which I would think further supports Gilg being as fast as her since otherwise there should've been a chance above 0 at least.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Lowk » Wed May 31, 2017 2:57 pm

Now that seems more like traditional teleporting. However I'm still not entirely convinced DMC3/4 Vergil truly teleports in the same fashion. That one in particular teleports in a burst of purple fire- Vergil's color-code was blue prior to that.


Why? They say he can teleport and differentiates Dantes trick as movement even more in DMC4
Aim above an enemy’s head and disappear in the blink of an eye with blindingly quick movements.

And DMC 1 Vergil is corrupted by mundus. Also the first game in the series. Visual styles have shown to change between games. Air trick for Dante wasn't color coded in 3 but was in four.

Also, to be a bit meta, look at it from the creator's standpoint. His original vision incorporated the character teleporting. Ever since then that character has a teleport move and even a description calling it a teleport in his later/past incarnation.
And from an in canon standpoint, timeline wise, it's the reverse. Young Vergil teleporting shtick sets a precedence to future Vergil teleporting.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed May 31, 2017 3:07 pm

Not sure what the argument is about the teleport if it is specifically called a teleport. Like I said before the colouring could be just a cue for the player ,not something that exists/can be seen in the actual lore/fiction itself.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed May 31, 2017 3:46 pm

Lowk wrote:
Now that seems more like traditional teleporting. However I'm still not entirely convinced DMC3/4 Vergil truly teleports in the same fashion. That one in particular teleports in a burst of purple fire- Vergil's color-code was blue prior to that.


Why? They say he can teleport and differentiates Dantes trick as movement even more in DMC4
Aim above an enemy’s head and disappear in the blink of an eye with blindingly quick movements.


But Dante doesn't disappear from his POV, he's just moving, that description is for either the player or enemy. That raises a possibility that Vergil doesn't teleport, but just appears to due to going so fast. Even in DMC3 I believe he blurred slightly in the direction he was going to teleport to- which signals movement in the regular sense.


Lowk wrote:And DMC 1 Vergil is corrupted by mundus. Also the first game in the series. Visual styles have shown to change between games. Air trick for Dante wasn't color coded in 3 but was in four.

Also, to be a bit meta, look at it from the creator's standpoint. His original vision incorporated the character teleporting. Ever since then that character has a teleport move and even a description calling it a teleport in his later/past incarnation.
And from an in canon standpoint, timeline wise, it's the reverse. Young Vergil teleporting shtick sets a precedence to future Vergil teleporting.


It would fit in the reverse as well, Vergil could truly teleport in DMC1, but when he was younger and less powerful he could only perform the lesser variant. The same would apply for his magical sword summons since those were made much more powerful and effective in DMC1 than they appeared in DMC3 for example.

If we can see him moving through the air, he's not just appearing in one place irrelevant of space and traversing distance, which would be what someone like Nightcrawler does. Calling it teleportation is one thing, making it act like teleportation is another, it's a fictional ability- there is no hard, "It must mean this" way of it functioning. You can say someone "teleports" and still make them move through physical space.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Alpha or Omega » Wed May 31, 2017 5:04 pm

To be fair, teleportation doesn't have one definition according to the Webster dictionary and wikipedia.

In Mortal Kombat, people teleport by making a portal, jumping through, and hitting the guy.
For the cyborgs, it's literally separating their limbs, and reattaching it wherever they end up.

In the Rock Man/Mega Man series, they just turn into energy and teleport to places.

Vergil's teleport as Nelo Angelo does look like the "instant" teleportation though.
It'll help them since they don't reach super sonic speeds.
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Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Lowk » Wed May 31, 2017 7:46 pm

But Dante doesn't disappear from his POV, he's just moving, that description is for either the player or enemy. That raises a possibility that Vergil doesn't teleport, but just appears to due to going so fast. Even in DMC3 I believe he blurred slightly in the direction he was going to teleport to- which signals movement in the regular sense.


Except Vergil's move does not state that. Dante's does.

1. His first a appearance set him up as someone who can teleport.
2. The description of his ability says teleport.
3. That description did not include phrases such as "similar to" or "appears to" in reference to his teleporting. Moving fast is not apart of the move description. Which
4. His style/powers gives a reason why he'd be able to do what Dante doesn't.

What Dante doing different than what Vergil does is support not by just those reasons but the theme of Dante and Vergil being similar but different as a whole. If all we had was just the visuals of DMC4 I'd be able to side with the possiblility.But everything else is stacked against it being the case.
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