FactPile "Light" version
FactPile YouTube Channel | FactPile PodCast

Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

This is where you will debate until the main site comes back online.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Authors

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Kitten Lord » Sun May 28, 2017 6:55 pm

That would be because you've set up a vague scenario where he's somehow under attack in melee-range by opponents who all have inferior melee-range


Its hardly vague, the simple and obvious case that you have argued yourself of any of the devil boys getting close and personal. Its likely going to be even more hectic for him to stay alive when hes using a spear and all of them use swords which can be just as effective at closer ranges.

Also they'll be firing rounds at him but I've been given no reason to expect them to hit him


Cannot speak for the others but Dante can shoot "other" bullets out of the air and stack bullets at long range with extreme accuracyso i see no reason why he would not hit him, and even if he blocks, no reason to suggest the power of those rounds would not either wound him or knock him off balance at the very least, in fact, the force of those bullets, especially rapid fired. In fact I recall Aeflinn doing a calc on how high the G-forces would be if Dante fired those shots rapidly at someone and they moved due to the force.

we're given nothing to suppose the thrust was in any way different from his normal attacks,


Other than the fact he specifically leaps when he invokes the other move of the spear, suggesting movement may be key to how it functions.

The following sentence also straight-up says Lancer isn't being arrogant when stating that.


Allegedly.

crew can dodge 30+ Mach 2 spears that can't miss


Sounds like a NLF, so just because Archer says so would you suggest the Spears would tag the Flash, Superman and the Presence going all out to avoid it? The statement may be relative, just like someone in-universe saying "the force-field cannot be broken" or "my Armour cannot be pierced" could be referring to what they personally know. Perhaps this is actually evidence that no servant can dodge mach 2 spears ;)

Just because you aren't willing to take a stab at the speeds required to be invisible doesn't mean the feats don't exist and that such speeds exceed supersonic.


Why would I be willing to assume those feats exceed supersonic speed when the claims themselves are about as thin as evidence as wet tissue paper? Dante disappears from sight several times in his games, i think the most obvious one was against despair embodied and maybe the Savior.

So DMC has, at best, one person who can actually keep up with the Servants.


If the Servants feats were not mostly descriptive writing from an ambiguous source with questionable clarity then maybe. I have only played the games, QS is the best speed in the series followed by the bullet and missile slicing they do. The brothers both slash a missile out of the air too.

Also all the DMC cast are immensely strong, they should all be able to accelerate to well beyond supersonic speeds.

That it happened in the snap of a finger?


I was talking about the huge gate with countless swords, not just one.

If you mean the Gates appearing then that's the raising of a hand

Which, as a servant, he can do at high speeds


It is unclear in that source what is really happening, "a haze" behind him occurring from his gesture is the move cast or if it is merely the start of it. Also "at high speeds" is questionable whether he can or does. My interpretation of that image of him standing there does not suggest he is especially active and is instead, much like ho the anime portrays the characters standing there, allowed to do his thing with no contention.

Now, if you want to say making a bigger Gate takes more time, I'd like a reason to believe that when nothing of the sort exists


Nothing of what sort exists? If you want a suggestion then the basic principal that a bigger gate may require more energy and therefore more effort and time on the user. Course, I take it we have no specific reason to assume it is just as quick to conjure thousands of weapons as it is one or few. There is also the question, why would he ever only conjure one if he can just as easily spam thousands.

Gilg essentially can do this-


I can see how that is what your imagining for it but that seems to be your suggestion and the issue with fate being that it has no actual showing and is text based.

Their choices are leave the area


Potentially, or strike/destroy them, shoot them, shoot him. I wonder if it requires some form of concentration on his part also. Vergil may just need to teleport. Course, their not out of the woods either, QS literally ends this fight before the Servants have any idea what has happened, Vergil if hes wielding Yamato may end up doing this and just bisecting the Servants. I see Nero as dry wood but I have no reason to believe they could survive/break his hold if he gets his devil arm on them since that thing has some strength behind it.
Image
User avatar
Kitten Lord
Organ Grinder
 
Posts: 2098
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun May 28, 2017 7:53 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:
That would be because you've set up a vague scenario where he's somehow under attack in melee-range by opponents who all have inferior melee-range


Its hardly vague, the simple and obvious case that you have argued yourself of any of the devil boys getting close and personal. Its likely going to be even more hectic for him to stay alive when hes using a spear and all of them use swords which can be just as effective at closer ranges.

Also they'll be firing rounds at him but I've been given no reason to expect them to hit him


Cannot speak for the others but Dante can shoot "other" bullets out of the air and stack bullets at long range with extreme accuracyso i see no reason why he would not hit him, and even if he blocks, no reason to suggest the power of those rounds would not either wound him or knock him off balance at the very least, in fact, the force of those bullets, especially rapid fired. In fact I recall Aeflinn doing a calc on how high the G-forces would be if Dante fired those shots rapidly at someone and they moved due to the force.


Swords are more effective if you can close in on him, which Dante seems to have an issue accomplishing since he appears slower by every rubric used. However, he will enter Lancer's range before Lancer is within Dante's- which allows for a Gae Bolg strike.
Why would the rounds wound him if he blocks? Servants routinely block and fight at (minimally) supersonic speeds- a bullet that can pierce steel (to some unknown degree since I remember the episode and the bullets don't go through the steel- they go into the steel) isn't packing more force or pressure than the tip of a spear or edge of a sword moving at supersonic speeds. Assuming they're only supersonic when several feats paint them as much faster is also incorrect.
Also, Aelfinn has since calc'd Ruby's gun and admitted magical bullets likely do not rely on speed for their power. Although if they do I'd love for you to calc how in FF7 for pistols to move a grown man plus his sword that's larger than he is through the air will be well into double-digit Mach speeds at least.


Kitten Lord wrote:
we're given nothing to suppose the thrust was in any way different from his normal attacks,


Other than the fact he specifically leaps when he invokes the other move of the spear, suggesting movement may be key to how it functions.


He can leap when invoking the auto-kill move as well, suggesting movement is not a key part at all in how it functions. He controls the spear, he can throw it on the ground if he pleases. Because, again, there is no rule about how he must use Gae Bolg- unlike other weapons with such restrictions like Fragarach- which the series makes sure to tell you.
Fragarach for example can ONLY be used after an opponent uses an attack and it MUST be their best attack.

Kitten Lord wrote:
The following sentence also straight-up says Lancer isn't being arrogant when stating that.


Allegedly.


More than allegedly is going against it- which is nothing at all from an in-verse perspective.

Kitten Lord wrote:
crew can dodge 30+ Mach 2 spears that can't miss


Sounds like a NLF, so just because Archer says so would you suggest the Spears would tag the Flash, Superman and the Presence going all out to avoid it? The statement may be relative, just like someone in-universe saying "the force-field cannot be broken" or "my Armour cannot be pierced" could be referring to what they personally know.


I have no particular idea of "can't miss" means and the only thing that resembled it during the chapter I read was the magi stating Lancer would still hit his target if they were on the other side of the planet.
And Archer at least absolutely could react to it as he had time to form a barrier that blocked it as this version doesn't automatically appear in the heart like the previous one.


Kitten Lord wrote:
Just because you aren't willing to take a stab at the speeds required to be invisible doesn't mean the feats don't exist and that such speeds exceed supersonic.


Why would I be willing to assume those feats exceed supersonic speed when the claims themselves are about as thin as evidence as wet tissue paper? Dante disappears from sight several times in his games, i think the most obvious one was against despair embodied and maybe the Savior.


Dante does move FTE though, it's in his powerset. However, he cannot do it constantly while fighting, only in short bursts. Considering that's the apparent peak to his speed- it would appear the Servants are many times faster since they can have entire battles while FTE. Apparently he can't keep up.

Kitten Lord wrote:
So DMC has, at best, one person who can actually keep up with the Servants.


If the Servants feats were not mostly descriptive writing from an ambiguous source with questionable clarity then maybe. I have only played the games, QS is the best speed in the series followed by the bullet and missile slicing they do. The brothers both slash a missile out of the air too.


While not related to the match- I initially copied that wrong and was sent to a greenhouse video. However, your description does remind me of Lady and Dante+Vergil fighting.
However, slicing a missile out of the air also does not require supersonic speeds.

Kitten Lord wrote:Also all the DMC cast are immensely strong, they should all be able to accelerate to well beyond supersonic speeds.


Then you'd best prove it.

Kitten Lord wrote:
That it happened in the snap of a finger?


I was talking about the huge gate with countless swords, not just one.


Technically you're talking about the one with thousands of swords, not countless since you didn't particularly like the term infinite.
However, by all appearance all he must do is raise his hand to create the Gate and click his fingers to bring the weapons from it. Often he need not even click to perform the latter. In fact, I believe he doesn't even move at times to create the gate either.

Kitten Lord wrote:
Now, if you want to say making a bigger Gate takes more time, I'd like a reason to believe that when nothing of the sort exists


Nothing of what sort exists? If you want a suggestion then the basic principal that a bigger gate may require more energy and therefore more effort and time on the user. Course, I take it we have no specific reason to assume it is just as quick to conjure thousands of weapons as it is one or few. There is also the question, why would he ever only conjure one if he can just as easily spam thousands.


Noted, a greater effect should require more energy when raising the hand.
The last point is a mixture of arrogance plus him wanting to bang/marry/torture/imprison Saber.


Also, a quick Q&A bit about Gilgamesh-
Q: Gilgamesh has no skills in swordsmanship, would Assassin win if Gilgamesh is caught in the range of Tsubame Gaeshi?

A: Most likely, he will just defend with his armour, or take out some really unfair defensive armament that protects against Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon, from the Gate of Babylon. However, Gilgamesh is capable of accurately assessing his opponents' abilities, so he would not consider having a battle of swordsmanship with Assassin the first place.

The creator basically stated Gilg has the ability to pull random bullshit out of his treasury to block an ability. This is even reaffirmed in another question
Q: Does “King’s Treasure: Gate of Babylon” contain things such as rare but weak Noble Phantasms? I noticed he kept wine in there in Fate/Zero, so I was wondering if Gilgamesh’s everyday meals were in there as well.

A: Anything can be found in there. Like a meat that multiplies in proportion to how much is eaten. He’s definitely the “NEET of Babylon.”

Just throwing it out there, the creator of the series seems to think Gilg has something for everything.


Kitten Lord wrote:
Gilg essentially can do this-


I can see how that is what your imagining for it but that seems to be your suggestion and the issue with fate being that it has no actual showing and is text based.


The two latter parts contradict one another, "no actual showing" and "text based". A text based showing is still a showing.
However, it was pretty clear in that regard, Gilgamesh spread his gate around the entire hill and attacked from all angles using it. And as cited- he isn't limited to 1 or 2 weapons at a time. Against Shirou I believe it was a good twenty but he had a superiority issue with Shirou and didn't want to admit he would have to try harder.
Gilg is essentially PIS. Against someone not intregral to the story he will crush without mercy. Against anyone who needs to stick around he'll find some reason to not go all-out against them.
For Lancelot it's because he's ordered not to.
For Saber it's because of previously stated bang/marry/kill relationship.
For Shirou it's because he's not willing to admit Shirou's ability trumps his.

In other routes, he has zero issue with opening portals all around Hercules and just flinging weapon after weapon at him until he died, because Heracles and his master weren't important to the plot anymore.


Kitten Lord wrote:
Their choices are leave the area

Potentially, or strike/destroy them, shoot them, shoot him. I wonder if it requires some form of concentration on his part also. Vergil may just need to teleport.


Still waiting for speed feats to even make combat with the Servants possible for the DMC crew. And a range citation on Vergil's teleport.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Lowk » Sun May 28, 2017 10:34 pm

And a range citation on Vergil's teleport.


A few meters going by judgement cut end.
That said dude can teleport spam across distances.
https://youtu.be/m8-zqJ3lxsM

He used a similar move against Dante where he seemingly disappears leaving nothing to attack as he slashs.
Smokey Bear: Omnipotence concerning Wildfires
McGruff: Omnipotence concerning crime
-Deathbattle Never change Deathbattle

Don't try to confuse me with your science.
-Geoff "Z-Bo" Ramsey
User avatar
Lowk
All Secrets Known
 
Posts: 3298
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: Someplace

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Kitten Lord » Mon May 29, 2017 5:00 am

which Dante seems to have an issue accomplishing since he appears slower by every rubric used. However, he will enter Lancer's range before Lancer is within Dante's- which allows for a Gae Bolg strike.


Only if you can prove he can say the name "Gae bolg" and do whatever he needs to do with the weapon before Dante or anyone of the devils closes that small gap, for Vergil it would be almost instantaneous and may surprise him, his only hope is Nero decides to face him who is not as fast as his elders. As soon as their within his reach his spear is effectively a liability.

isn't packing more force or pressure than the tip of a spear or edge of a sword moving at supersonic speeds.


That would be an interesting calc to see the result of actually. I can probably calc the spear if we can find its dimensions but I am not sure how much pressure is at the tip of a bullet that can pulverize steel and demolish a bridge, those things have to be pretty sturdy, also dug this out of the respect thread;

dante holds up an elephant sized demon with his guns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnDTZr6IgE (1:00)
(Aelfinn calc on dante holding up the elephant sized demon)
"I’m going to assume the demon was the low-end weight of a full-grown elephant (this mass is up for debate, so it’s just an assumption). The next assumption is that it was raised 2 meters.
-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant
-
PE = mgh
PE = 3000 kg * 9.8 m/s/s * 2 meters
PE increase of 58800 Joules.
-
So with a few bullets (I would say there were 15, if anyone is inclined to count or prove me wrong).
-
Which means that Dante, in that scene, put out about 3920 Joules per bullet fast enough to keep this thing from falling.
-
Another way to look at it is at least 29400 Newtons constantly applied, or about 6600 pounds of force (the weight of an elephant)."


If anyone knows the surface area of a bullets face then we can use the force and area to find pressure and compare it to a super sonic spear. Using this source each shot from Dante should pack 508 MPa. A considerable amount of pressure. Not that being hit by an elephant repeatedly would do you any good.


Also, Aelfinn has since calc'd Ruby's gun and admitted magical bullets likely do not rely on speed for their power.


Oh I am not saying it relies on speed, I am just pointing out their powerful regardless of the reason for it, more so than your average bullet of that size anyway due to how they work and are magically enhanced. Also, the fact Dante can stack 5 of them, one on top of the other before the first bullet drops may suggest they are faster than your average bullet.

And Archer at least absolutely could react to it as he had time to form a barrier that blocked it as this version doesn't automatically appear in the heart like the previous one.


Reacting to a Mach 2 spear is one thing, and fairly impressive depending on distance but not the same as avoiding or dodging, the spears aim was not exactly impaired, it sounds like Archer just put up something to try and stop it. I take it that battle was what the anime AOTUA posted depicted?



he cannot do it constantly while fighting, only in short bursts.


This is an interesting assertion, do you have evidence he cannot or is it more, he "has not" in the circumstances we see him in? Looks pretty casual to me. I certainly cannot see Dante standing there in the Despair embodied scene or atop Saviours hands in DMC 4 and say he looks like he could not do that again as if hes burned himself out.

Then you'd best prove it.


Well I cite the Saviour feat, and an old Dualgunner calc concerning it from the respect thread;

Spoiler
Based on this video, at around the six-minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0PZa-LOzQY
There are (low-end) five “cubic Dante’s” worth of stone in the hand alone. I’m wildly under-estimating, and that’s just an assumption, but there it is.
-
Anyway, assuming Dante is 6-foot-3, that puts him at around 1.9 meters tall, and a “cubic Dante” is about 6.8 cubic meters. Five “cubic Dante’s” is a little more than 34 cubic meters.
-
Now, from this site, stone is (low-end) 2300 kg per cubic meter.
-
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/densi ... _1265.html
-
Converting from kilograms to pounds to Newtons (using Google), results in 773,532.394 Newtons. Quite a lot.


According to this, Dante was able to stand up to over 700k N without bucking so using this calculator if we take Dante to be a 80kg mass he would accelerate to 9669.15 m/s or Mach 28.

Another calculation in the respect thread;

Spoiler
so it takes vergil 3 seconds to clear most of the space with a time manipulation of 558x slower
it wasn't possible to find the actual length of this field in this cutscene so i used a few different ones
first i used the cutscene where lady and dante are in the same field lady measured from the top of her bayonet to the bottom of her boot 51 pixels and the length of the visible field measures 340 pixels. the top of her bayonet is slightly taller than dante who is around 6ft tall in this game aka two yards. so 340/51x2= 13.33 yards
however this still isn't enough because leviathan just landed on the majority of the field covering it so i had to figure out leviathans size. so i i found a cutscene where he eats dante and measured dantes length (2 yards) compared to leviathan. i got 35 pixels for dante and 790 for leviathan (at the point where he is closest to leviathan and you can actually see his entire face in the shot) so 790/35x2=45.14yards. meaning 45.14+13.33 equals 58.47. (rounded to 58.5 to make my life easier)- the 3 yards he didn't travel. equals 55.5
accounting for slow mo we get a speed of 30969 yards in three seconds or 30969 feet per second AKA mach 27.76
the math for this wasn't hard but you had to be a god damn devil may cry detective to find the solid numbers lol


Seems both this one and Dualgunners suggest around Mach 27-28 casual speeds.


A text based showing is still a showing.


If we cannot "see" it in action your just interpreting what your reading which can be subjective. Not to say visual evidence cannot be subjective as well but text alone makes factors such as time very hard to gauge and not only that, descriptive writing like in fate from an observer which seems to consider itself as fallible could take months of picking apart to decipher the true meaning.

However, it was pretty clear in that regard, Gilgamesh spread his gate around the entire hill and attacked from all angles using it


Right but we have no idea how long this took really, your suggesting it took a short period of time because a few scans are shown of him "raising his hand" and something happening but in that scene it was not clear how long it took him to cover the whole hill, the rate of which the weapons came through and how those weapons acted. Nothing that proves it would be akin to Xemnas' energy bolts anyway appearing all around the opponent meters away on a whim.

Still waiting for speed feats to even make combat with the Servants possible for the DMC crew


What speed feat for the servants are you comparing them to? The ones in contention or a proven one I have yet to see? So far we have a lot of quotes from observers, apparently human ones who do not know what their seeing. Fate has several of those kicking around and seems to be the writing style, it was the same in the other thread where Saber was moving like a wind or what not and someone was describing it.

We also have a lot of descriptive language which is up for debate on what was intended and what is actually factual. Where are the feats you cited (the actual quotes) that state numbers such as kilometers per second? I recall you mentioning Saber moved 4 km in 2 seconds but I cannot recall the context or the quote, same for the others characters would be appreciated.

Also how fast do they think for themselves? I feel this was brushed over, the Masters (are the masters human btw?) call the shots most of the time, if they are chucked into this match without a master how clever are they and how quick are they at decisions? Its all well and good telling me they can swing their weapons fast but can they actually make cognitive (not just impulsive/instinctive reactions) decisions at high speed?

Seriously if you had to choose one feat for each o the fate characters that "proves" they are supersonic+ or greater which ones would you choose? Is there anything more solid than the endless interpretations of what "instant" could mean, or those are rely on the evaluations of other, possibly fallible characters?

And a range citation on Vergil's teleport.

A few meters going by judgement cut end.


If the teleport travels space and its function is limited by distance.
Image
User avatar
Kitten Lord
Organ Grinder
 
Posts: 2098
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Mon May 29, 2017 12:54 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:
which Dante seems to have an issue accomplishing since he appears slower by every rubric used. However, he will enter Lancer's range before Lancer is within Dante's- which allows for a Gae Bolg strike.


Only if you can prove he can say the name "Gae bolg" and do whatever he needs to do with the weapon before Dante or anyone of the devils closes that small gap, for Vergil it would be almost instantaneous and may surprise him, his only hope is Nero decides to face him who is not as fast as his elders. As soon as their within his reach his spear is effectively a liability.


I think you mean- "As soon as HE is in THEIR reach his spear could possibly be a liability." Them being within his reach does not mean he's within there's, that's the advantage of a greater ranged weapon you know.
Except that liability is for stabbing spears, Lancer is specifically pointed out to not have that issue because he can also slash and parry with his spear, making him equally effective at all ranges; he's also pointed out to be fast enough that even the Servants have a hard time getting past the spear to attack him. Servants that appear faster than Dante by given feats.
Also Vergil's teleport is not instantaneous, there's a delay even for us, supersonic characters would notice an even longer delay and be able to respond appropriately; especially if he has a giant blue trail that follows him while he does it.


Kitten Lord wrote:
isn't packing more force or pressure than the tip of a spear or edge of a sword moving at supersonic speeds.


That would be an interesting calc to see the result of actually. I can probably calc the spear if we can find its dimensions but I am not sure how much pressure is at the tip of a bullet that can pulverize steel and demolish a bridge, those things have to be pretty sturdy, also dug this out of the respect thread;

dante holds up an elephant sized demon with his guns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnDTZr6IgE (1:00)
(Aelfinn calc on dante holding up the elephant sized demon)
"I’m going to assume the demon was the low-end weight of a full-grown elephant (this mass is up for debate, so it’s just an assumption). The next assumption is that it was raised 2 meters.


Gonna have to disagree with frankly that entire calc considering at no point in that scene do you actually see him lifting the "Elephant sized demon" via the guns, certainly not by raising it two meters. It's feet are all on the floor, Dante shoots it in the neck a lot, and then he swings his sword to bat it out of the building. There is zero evidence to assume he knocked the thing off the floor at all with his guns even watching the scene in slow-motion.
Pulverize seems rather excessive for the scene, dent steel would be more accurate, he leaves a divot in the steel; he just fires a lot of bullets to accomplish more.


Kitten Lord wrote:
And Archer at least absolutely could react to it as he had time to form a barrier that blocked it as this version doesn't automatically appear in the heart like the previous one.


Reacting to a Mach 2 spear is one thing, and fairly impressive depending on distance but not the same as avoiding or dodging, the spears aim was not exactly impaired, it sounds like Archer just put up something to try and stop it. I take it that battle was what the anime AOTUA posted depicted?


Aotua said it was about the observation battle so no, that would be Lancer vs Archer's 1st battle, no Gae Bolg was used because Shirou was spotted and Lancer ditched Archer to kill him. Should be noted that Shirou never fully healed the injury Lancer gave him either- despite Gae Bolg not even being activated in either form when he stabbed Shirou. Shirou has regeneration of his own.
However, Archer did the same thing pretty much every Servant does, call out the incantation that activates his ability; because Servants that run around and battle at supersonic speeds also can activate their abilities just as quickly.
The exception being stuff like Excalibur and Fragarach, which are both cited as having certain poses and rules for when and how they can be used.


Kitten Lord wrote:
Then you'd best prove it.


Well I cite the Saviour feat, and an old Dualgunner calc concerning it from the respect thread;

Spoiler
Based on this video, at around the six-minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0PZa-LOzQY
There are (low-end) five “cubic Dante’s” worth of stone in the hand alone. I’m wildly under-estimating, and that’s just an assumption, but there it is.
-
Anyway, assuming Dante is 6-foot-3, that puts him at around 1.9 meters tall, and a “cubic Dante” is about 6.8 cubic meters. Five “cubic Dante’s” is a little more than 34 cubic meters.
-
Now, from this site, stone is (low-end) 2300 kg per cubic meter.
-
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/densi ... _1265.html
-
Converting from kilograms to pounds to Newtons (using Google), results in 773,532.394 Newtons. Quite a lot.


According to this, Dante was able to stand up to over 700k N without bucking so using this calculator if we take Dante to be a 80kg mass he would accelerate to 9669.15 m/s or Mach 28.


The physics-defying power of super strength does not come from acceleration so that calc is irrelevant for speeds.


Kitten Lord wrote:Another calculation in the respect thread;

Spoiler
so it takes vergil 3 seconds to clear most of the space with a time manipulation of 558x slower
it wasn't possible to find the actual length of this field in this cutscene so i used a few different ones
first i used the cutscene where lady and dante are in the same field lady measured from the top of her bayonet to the bottom of her boot 51 pixels and the length of the visible field measures 340 pixels. the top of her bayonet is slightly taller than dante who is around 6ft tall in this game aka two yards. so 340/51x2= 13.33 yards
however this still isn't enough because leviathan just landed on the majority of the field covering it so i had to figure out leviathans size. so i i found a cutscene where he eats dante and measured dantes length (2 yards) compared to leviathan. i got 35 pixels for dante and 790 for leviathan (at the point where he is closest to leviathan and you can actually see his entire face in the shot) so 790/35x2=45.14yards. meaning 45.14+13.33 equals 58.47. (rounded to 58.5 to make my life easier)- the 3 yards he didn't travel. equals 55.5
accounting for slow mo we get a speed of 30969 yards in three seconds or 30969 feet per second AKA mach 27.76
the math for this wasn't hard but you had to be a god damn devil may cry detective to find the solid numbers lol


Seems both this one and Dualgunners suggest around Mach 27-28 casual speeds.


The former ignores that Dante's strength doesn't require acceleration of high speeds and the latter is an animation loophole considering Vergil will be noticeably slow as hell when Dante uses QS on him. Not to mention cutscense contradict those speeds pretty heavily.
Also, battling to the death, gasping for air, and grunting from effort is not "casual" no matter how you interpret the rest of either feat, pointless boasting is pointless.

Kitten Lord wrote:
A text based showing is still a showing.


If we cannot "see" it in action your just interpreting what your reading which can be subjective. Not to say visual evidence cannot be subjective as well but text alone makes factors such as time very hard to gauge and not only that, descriptive writing like in fate from an observer which seems to consider itself as fallible could take months of picking apart to decipher the true meaning.


A subjective showing is still a showing.
Gilg has created the gate by raising a hand and sometimes not even moving, at no point is it suggested it takes a great deal of effort and the Gate is actually cited as being incredibly energy efficient, all of which implies he can open the gate quickly and with little energy cost. Considering minimally supersonic opponents cannot escape the Gate he surrounds them with, one would imagine it spawns quickly enough to surround them before they can leave.


Kitten Lord wrote:
However, it was pretty clear in that regard, Gilgamesh spread his gate around the entire hill and attacked from all angles using it


Right but we have no idea how long this took really, your suggesting it took a short period of time because a few scans are shown of him "raising his hand" and something happening but in that scene it was not clear how long it took him to cover the whole hill, the rate of which the weapons came through and how those weapons acted. Nothing that proves it would be akin to Xemnas' energy bolts anyway appearing all around the opponent meters away on a whim.


Actually the latter is specifically supported since I posted a scan of weapons being conjured up below, behind, above, and in front of the opponent. More weapons do not discredit his ability to produce them wherever he seems to want.
Also I should point out the "instant" happened to Shirou, who is fast enough to strike Berserker 9 times before Berserker can complete one swing.
Berserker being capable of supersonic speeds, in fact even when blind he's still stated to reach those speeds (someone running directly away was told they'd not escape because they were only moving at the speed of sound) and would smash through trees like strings/thread just by running.
Berserker is also a being that Gilgamesh could surround with the Gate and couldn't escape it or dodge projectiles forever.

Kitten Lord wrote:
Still waiting for speed feats to even make combat with the Servants possible for the DMC crew


What speed feat for the servants are you comparing them to? The ones in contention or a proven one I have yet to see? So far we have a lot of quotes from observers, apparently human ones who do not know what their seeing. Fate has several of those kicking around and seems to be the writing style, it was the same in the other thread where Saber was moving like a wind or what not and someone was describing it.


Actually no, much of it is also narration, which is irrelevant to the characters present. (Several of which are capable of superhuman speeds anyways, such as Rin and Shirou)
And narration states casual supersonic speeds at a minimum, several times outright mentioning exceeding the speed of sound, and also mentions fighting invisible to the human eye.


Kitten Lord wrote:Also how fast do they think for themselves? I feel this was brushed over, the Masters (are the masters human btw?) call the shots most of the time, if they are chucked into this match without a master how clever are they and how quick are they at decisions? Its all well and good telling me they can swing their weapons fast but can they actually make cognitive (not just impulsive/instinctive reactions) decisions at high speed?


If by "brushed over" you mean ignoring the, "I'm implying they have issues making decisions on their own" angle then yes, I'm brushing over it because there is no support for it. If there was ever a time where Servants actually needed orders from their master to make a decision- you would have a point. This doesn't happen because Servants are thinking and living (well, spiritually living) spirits- not having a master isn't going to make them bad at fighting. Servants have hundreds of years of combat experience- what's a master going to offer? They don't even need masters to explain the world they've arrived in- that knowledge just magically appears when they spawn.
They make decisions fine, having a master means nothing except it limits their magical energy in the sense that they won't get any over the duration of existing, not really relevant since they're not fighting a war. The master doesn't give specific commands in combat like, "Duck, parry, attack his head!" At most this just means Servants only can last for 2 hours without a master.
But, Gilgamesh and Saber are both able to exist and battle just fine for longer, so the only one that would apply to is Lancer at best. However, I doubt either of us thinks the battle is close enough to last for 2 hours. Long before that Gilg would've been annoyed/approving enough to pull out Ea and that's a planetbuster. (7x over apparently)

Kitten Lord wrote:Seriously if you had to choose one feat for each o the fate characters that "proves" they are supersonic+ or greater which ones would you choose? Is there anything more solid than the endless interpretations of what "instant" could mean, or those are rely on the evaluations of other, possibly fallible characters?


Both Lancer and Saber, had an entire battle in a street, at such speeds that they couldn't be seen; as stated by narration. This battle included cutting apart objects without touching them and creating winds that were ripping apart structures.
Saber and Rider ascended up a skyscraper, in a zig-zag pattern no less (which was not factored into any of our calcs due to that being entirely variable), at speeds that couldn't be seen by the human eye; as stated by narration.
Also, remember that narration stating too fast for human eyesight isn't the same as a human character stating they can't see them, same with "an instant".
You refuse to put a number to how fast they could be going based on "instant" not being viable as a hard time. Fine, so go with the FPS the human eye can perceive since that exact thing is indicated. Some arguments exist about this so you can pick, 30 FPS, 60 FPS, or (as I saw on some sites) apparently 120 FPS is a thing for some reason- I believe because even action movies have to use 120 film on occasion because some martial artists punch so fast that they're a blur on 60 FPS.
Not having the exact answer is not the same as not having an answer. Aelfinn did no different when he picked the weight of that elephant, there's many kinds of elephants with different weights and he picked that one. If you disagreed you could pick another weight that makes sense with the established critera. You can't even say those answers are wrong- just that they aren't exact. If the monster did weigh that much, and if it was moved so much, the calc would be correct.
If they travel 33 meters (10 stories, absolute king of lowballs minimum height for skyscraper that hasn't been used since the 80s) in 1/30th of a second, that's 990 meters per second. Almost Mach 3. 1/60th of a second doubles that, Mach 6. 1/120th of a second doubles it again, Mach 12. And so on and so forth for various heights you think a "skyscraper" would be in a relatively modern city.
And that's still not correct, because they're not going straight up, but zigzagging across the building; which we can't hope to calc accurately. However, we know it would increase the result because our timeframe is static regardless of the distance moved.
Your counter is, "To escape human sight requires knowledge of angles, light, etc." but this isn't relevant. There's no mention of darkness making it hard to see them or an angle making it hard to keep vision of them. There is, however, numerous mentions of them simply moving too fast to be seen by the human eye. That's what the series defines as the issue- that's the cause of the effect.

I will admit Gilg is pretty light on feats, pretty much the only instance of him truly in hand-to-hand combat was against Saber, he didn't seem to be getting blitzed so similar speeds would be expected to Saber. Although he apparently did react to an arrow that was dodging defenses his lightning-machines were producing but again, outside of the main 3 routes, I don't know how canon the other stories are or whether they include buffs and nerfs to the characters.



Kitten Lord wrote:
And a range citation on Vergil's teleport.

A few meters going by judgement cut end.


If the teleport travels space and its function is limited by distance.


Considering we see Vergil move through the air in the video Lowk posted, he's traveling space. Regardless- he's still limited by feats.
Although, DMC4 Vergil certainly isn't canon considering he has weapons that he both gained and lost in DMC3, but I'll accept that what we see counts for him in any case.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Alpha or Omega » Mon May 29, 2017 5:43 pm

Dante requires Beowulf in order to be super sonic. He's not able to reach that speed on his own.
Perhaps with quicksilver, but his speed itself is below super sonic.

Vergil's weapons that should appear in DMC 3 instead of DMC 4 are non canon in DMC 4.
However, his appearance in DMC 4 is canon as it takes place before DMC 3.
Though, he doesn't do much. He enters the city, kills some demons, probably got laid for Nero to be born, and then, he left.
I know you didn't mean it that way, but others might not know if they're not into DMC.
Image
A lesson is learnt from victory, a thousand from defeat.
User avatar
Alpha or Omega
Zombie Eater
 
Posts: 4934
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:33 am
Location: On the Move

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Kitten Lord » Tue May 30, 2017 6:50 am

Except that liability is for stabbing spears, Lancer is specifically pointed out to not have that issue because he can also slash and parry with his spear, making him equally effective at all ranges;


The spear looks like more or less any spear, he still needs "room" to maneuver it, if their blitzing at sword range then all that length is going to be an issue no matter how he uses it against servants.

Servants that appear faster than Dante by given feats.


Or slower pending interpretation.

supersonic characters would notice an even longer delay and be able to respond appropriately


What delay are you talking about exactly? how long do you think it is?

if he has a giant blue trail that follows him while he does it.


If it is not a visual fro the benefit of the player perhaps.


It's feet are all on the floor,


When are its feet shown still on the floor once Dante starts shooting it? Clearly it is "above" Dantes pistols at the very least meaning the force of his guns is keeping it off him.

The physics-defying power of super strength


I will stop you here, force is force, in accordance with newtons third law if Dante applies the force of his strength output on a surface his mass will accelerate accordingly.

Not to mention cutscense contradict those speeds pretty heavily.


What ones contradict them?

Gilg has created the gate by raising a hand and sometimes not even moving


None of your sources certainly suggest he creates the gate in the span of time it takes him to raise his hand. Only that raising his hand seems to activate the power, or at the very least he likes to do so (raise his hand) when using the power.


Considering minimally supersonic opponents cannot escape the Gate he surrounds them with, one would imagine it spawns quickly enough to surround them before they can leave.


Who tried to escape and could not get out of the field?

Also I should point out the "instant" happened to Shirou, who is fast enough to strike Berserker 9 times before Berserker can complete one swing.


Berserker being capable of supersonic speeds, in fact even when blind he's still stated to reach those speeds (someone running directly away was told they'd not escape because they were only moving at the speed of sound) and would smash through trees like strings/thread just by running.



This is not going to solidify what the term "instant" objectively means here. Also you say that like I know how fast berserker can complete a swing, how fast he has moved/been stated or claimed to move in the past does not determine how fast he was when swinging there. Also who/what is Shirou, is he human?

Berserker is also a being that Gilgamesh could surround with the Gate and couldn't escape it or dodge projectiles forever.


Did he try to escape it? From what little I have seen of Berserker he does not seem the sort to try and escape anyone.

They make decisions fine, having a master means nothing except it limits their magical energy in the sense that they won't get any over the duration of existing


Question, why would they have masters at all then if all it does is limit their magic? Or did you mean they are limited without masters? If so, some citation on how they function without masters is required here, you say later that they can last 2 hours without a master, how much fighting, magic and abilities can they use without a master? With sources please.

Both Lancer and Saber, had an entire battle in a street, at such speeds that they couldn't be seen; as stated by narration.


I somewhat remember, mind posting the entire quote here, bolding what you think is narration ? Personally I dislike the writing of fate due to it either sounding like oddly tanslated/awkward English and unclear whether it is someone explaining something or the author/narrator.

at speeds that couldn't be seen by the human eye; as stated by narration.



Well as you go on, its up for discussion alone how fast that has to be assuming it is literal.

Your counter is, "To escape human sight requires knowledge of angles, light, etc." but this isn't relevant. There's no mention of darkness making it hard to see them or an angle making it hard to keep vision of them.


It will always be relevant as long as we are talking about someone visually following another. And darkness not being mentioned does not mean it was not dark unless it was specifically said to be day. Also, if I recall the scans looked like it was done at night, distance is relevant because obviously someone far away watching two human sized objects especially if the skyscraper was tall is not going to be able to follow them, you said yourself even human martial artists are hard to follow in combat by cameras which are not likely to be placed a skyscraper distance away.

Aelfinn did no different when he picked the weight of that elephant,


Of course, Aeflinn admitted that himself. But he, just like I did when posting his calc was putting forward a source, one that "may" be correct, its not a stretch in my opinion to say that Demon based on its size would be pretty heavy and honestly, I do not think anyone could calc it light enough (gauged on its size and the sound it makes when it touches the floor) to make keeping it above the the barrels of E&I with their fire unimpressive.

So conclude the points, when asked what feats best solidify their speed your still relying on interpretation, that of "instant" or your relying on the hardly concrete variables that revolve around specific features, how big a skyscraper was (we can make guesses but we do not know), how far were they from the objects they were damaging, how strong were those objects (who knows), How fast did they have to be to be hard to track from the observer and how fast is that anyway (not sure).

Also can you not see the possible contradiction between your two citations here? In the first you cite physical effects that you suggest come from the cause of speed yet in the latter, the two characters moving up the skyscraper, one of which being Saber who was apparently specifically cited to be running made no influence on the building itself or any stated (if its not stated you seem to think it did not happen? seems to be your counter to some of my questions), I covered his in the thread it was brought up. You cannot land your foot at hypersonic speeds on a skyscraper or its windows without either A; destroying your footing and causing damage to the skyscraper or B; assuming its some super durable building, launching yourself "off" the surface in conjunction with newtons third law.

Although it may not be canon the anime depicted the scene and there was no damage to the building if I recall and when the scan from the novel was shown the scene looked very similar to the anime (Saber running up a regular skyscraper at night).

If those are the best feats or most clear you know please post the entire quotes, as well as any quotes/scenes leading up to them which may shed some light on the substance and we can start off from the other thread in here.

Considering we see Vergil move through the air in the video Lowk posted, he's traveling space.


Well like I said earlier, its not impossible that that is a visual aid for the person controlling the character. Wasnt there a cutscene where Vergil used teleport? (to anyone in particular)
Image
User avatar
Kitten Lord
Organ Grinder
 
Posts: 2098
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Lowk » Tue May 30, 2017 1:03 pm

Well like I said earlier, its not impossible that that is a visual aid for the person controlling the character. Wasnt there a cutscene where Vergil used teleport? (to anyone in particular)


He does it in his boss fight with Dante. His air trick is called a teleport. And there's blink and you'll miss moments in his DMC4 scene.
https://youtu.be/rBxkqoZiPLA
1:20
1:22

Edit:Again, only using it to cross a few meters. Don't think That Vergil has long range teleport feats. DmC Vergil might, but not main series.
Smokey Bear: Omnipotence concerning Wildfires
McGruff: Omnipotence concerning crime
-Deathbattle Never change Deathbattle

Don't try to confuse me with your science.
-Geoff "Z-Bo" Ramsey
User avatar
Lowk
All Secrets Known
 
Posts: 3298
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: Someplace

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Friendlysociopath » Tue May 30, 2017 1:47 pm

Lowk wrote:
Well like I said earlier, its not impossible that that is a visual aid for the person controlling the character. Wasnt there a cutscene where Vergil used teleport? (to anyone in particular)


He does it in his boss fight with Dante. His air trick is called a teleport. And there's blink and you'll miss moments in his DMC4 scene.
https://youtu.be/rBxkqoZiPLA
1:20
1:22

Edit:Again, only using it to cross a few meters. Don't think That Vergil has long range teleport feats. DmC Vergil might, but not main series.


Just pointing out if you slow that down, he's moving really fast, not teleporting; he travels the distance- he doesn't just appear.
Which means I kinda have to ask- does the main series ever actually say he teleports? Or is that just sort of a fan explanation for why he blurs around sometimes FTE style and other times just shows up without the blur?
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: Dante, Vergil, Nero vs Saber, Lancer, Gilgamesh

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Tue May 30, 2017 3:09 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:Which begs the question how hard Saber was hitting him.


Welcome back, Kitten Lord.

Begging the question is not the same thing as raising the question, which you just did. It's a common error, which I go out of my way to point out.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Factpile Debates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron